Joined: Feb 21, 2008
Posts: 456
Location: upstate NY
Birthday: Mar 20
Posted:
Tue May 27, 2008 3:04 pm
I spent about 45 minutes on the phone with Greg Skipper. I have his permission to share our email exchange with you all.
I'd like leave the decision about buying up to all CC members. This was, and always was, my intent.
I am now working to clarify why my post was censored.
Thanks to all who PM'd and emailed support!
Petit-four
Dear Greg:
Thanks for your recent post on Cake Central.
My evaluation of the pan was simply a reflection of what a local cake shop sold. Just as a food critic visits a restaurant and does not ask for "special" service, my purchases (the Magic Line was from an on-line store) reflected what an average customer would receive. If you read my post carefully, you will see I also noted some problems with the Magic Line pans (such as difficulty in cleaning them by hand). In many areas your pans were rated as superior to Magic Line. The experiment I conducted was fair, given that no accompanying information regarding baking temperature was given to me when I bought the pan from a local cake shop.
Most importantly, as I am sure you know, bakers, whether in production bakeries, small custom shops, or at home, value fewer crumbs. I baked another set of cakes (cinnamon, scratch recipe) at 320. I had similar results: more crumbs, and a longer baking time.
As I mentioned in one of my posts, I suspected the crowning was due to the temperature being rather too high. However, if FD pans do require temperatures as low as 300 degrees, I would strongly encourage the company to provide some accompanying literature about the requirements. As you can see, none of the 1600+ readers (myself included) ever mentioned receiving any information about this. Only one post mentioned using a lower temperature, and she had to find the information herself. And, as you know, convection ovens have become much more common in home and small shop kitchens.
Regarding the information about aluminum transfer, you may wish to review the Alzheimer's Society's public health article, which concludes, "The overwhelming medical and scientific opinion is that the findings outlined above do not convincingly demonstrate a causal relationship between aluminium and Alzheimer's disease, and that no useful medical or public health recommendations can be made, at least at present." http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/s.....umentID=99 However, I do applaud you for bringing up this health issue.
Another point of concern to me is that Magic Line pans clearly state where they are manufactured; indeed, it is indelibly etched on the pan: "Made in USA." The Fad Daddios pan I purchased had only a sticker on it "Made in China." I would strongly suggest, since you note that "our process actually costs us more money to manufacture" that you provide evidence to the decorating community that your factories are staffed with individuals compliant with FDA health codes, and workers are paid appropriately.
I'd also like to add I am in no way affiliated with Magic Line, nor any other brand of cake product manufacturer. I would like to share my concerns with the CC community, as well.
Sincerely,
Kathy (Petit-four)
Here's his reply:
Kathy,
I appreciate your email and how well thought out and executed your experiment was. Please understand I am not bashing you at all and I apologize to you if that is how it came across. On the contrary I am quite respectful of your experiment and your time in conducting it. I just wanted to reply accordingly as I need to be fair to my company and brand and make sure our customers are aware of differences. I did note where we rated well in some areas. I was just trying to do my part to explain possible reasons for areas where we clearly lacked a “good grade”.
You couldn’t be more correct in informing our customers of baking temperature differences. In fact, we just started labeling our pans and this information will be appearing on those labels. I should have known better by not doing that before. I likely could have eliminated many of these issues. I have received a huge influx of emails since this morning and have heard from several people who like the pans and have stated they even bake with our pans at 275 in convection with excellent color, consistency, and release. I am not endorsing 275 but it goes to show variances that occur from oven to oven.
I noted your web link with the correlation between Alzheimer’s and aluminum and quite frankly, I agree. I did not state that there was a correlation between Alzheimer’s and aluminum, nor do I honestly believe that there is. Aluminum is prevalent in so many areas of our lives and is the most abundant material. It is agreed that there is an elevated amount of aluminum found in autopsy reports of individuals with Alzheimers and this has lead to a very large group of consumers who are genuinely concerned with the use of this metal. For the past 40 years we have had tremendous trouble selling our previous style of natural aluminum pans in many markets (especially France and Italy) and to many commercial bakers because of the leaching and contamination issue. Natural aluminum is unquestionably highly reactive with acidic foods and changes the flavor of many foods as well. Cream that comes in contact with aluminum distorts the taste of it. Acidic foods will literally “eat” the aluminum. We sent several thousands of natural aluminum 9x13 pans to Knott’s Berry Farm in Southern California many years ago that were used for their boysenberry cakes. After a couple months we were notified that holes were appearing in the pans and large cavities were covering the pan. After sending the pans to a metallurgist we discovered the fruit was literally eating the pans. This same customer has been using our anodized aluminum pans with absolutely no pitting or contamination. The problems with natural aluminum are very real and that is why we elected to anodize our products.
As for the China issue, we are very proud of the quality and manufacturing process of our bakeware. We have very strict controls on our factory, employ our own QC staff, and have on-site our own management team. Our factory is greatly capitalized by our company. Our factory is state of the art in technology and is perhaps the cleanest facility I have ever stepped foot in. Our pans do cost us more as they are made form 100% the same materials we used for Magic Line and then anodized after the fact. If I went to market with a natural aluminum pan I would save the cost of anodizing which adds that additional cost to my product (up to 13% over natural aluminum).
I would like for you to call me to talk some more. I noticed that CC has modified your original post and I have had absolutely nothing to do with that. I posted my response on 3 different boards there only for the reasons to get the free pan offer out to as many people as possible.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[b]Oh, and I want to add: I did not, have not, nor ever will receive any free, discounted, or otherwise marked-down products or merchandise from FD or ML (nor Wilton for that matter). No free pans for me, thank you. [/b]
I'm happy to clarify any questions about this thread, and appreciate all the honest and freely-given information posted. I'm very sorry the original post was taken down, and am in the process of clarifying with CC why the post was removed.
Thank you to all for your support -- I've have quite a day!
Petit-four Frequent Member
Joined: Feb 21, 2008
Posts: 456
Location: upstate NY
Birthday: Mar 20
Posted:
Tue May 27, 2008 3:16 pm
Hi everyone -- I'm sorry about all the duplicate posts. I've gotten a lot of support and messages -- thank you. I've had to try and keep track of messages written about my "test" in 3 forums.
I'd like to note the following:
1) I don't work for anyone associated in any way with cake supplies, produects, pans, etc.
2) My intent was simply to decide what sort of square pan I'd like to buy. I ran a test (and yes, I actually have a white pastry chef's coat and wear a hairnet!). I have a home-grade GE convection oven.
3) I never received (nor, apparently did any of the 1600+ readers, save one) any information about lower baking temperatures.
4) My test was simply to compare results. Since the original post has been deleted, I can't point out to any of you, but I did to Greg Skipper, that half of the "marks" for FD were higher!
5) Greg acknowledged to me that there is currently no written information about the lower temperatures on the pans nor on the company website. If you recall, I even posted a link to their site.
6) I disagree with CC's decision to take down my post, and strongly encourage them to reconsider their decision.
OK -- I've calmed down now. Again, thanks everyone for the support! You are what make CC great.
YAYI95 Regular Member
Joined: Jul 06, 2007
Posts: 165
Location: Florida by way of Panama Rep
Posted:
Tue May 27, 2008 3:20 pm
Petit-four just wanna thank you for sharing all the information on the pans and the email between you and fd.....
Petit-four Frequent Member
Joined: Feb 21, 2008
Posts: 456
Location: upstate NY
Birthday: Mar 20
Posted:
Tue May 27, 2008 3:25 pm
Thank you -- sorry about the "yelling" in large letters. I am still stunned at what happened, and wanted to clarify my situation. If someone would like a free pan to test, great!
After what happened to me, however, I would rather buy the pans of my choice.
Again, thanks for the support. Normally, I am a rather sedate CC member. Thanks everyone! The support means a lot!
Mike1394 Forum Fanatic
Joined: Feb 20, 2008
Posts: 1299
Location: Michigan
Posted:
Tue May 27, 2008 3:32 pm
It's BS that your test was taken down. I have some FD pans, and actually like them. Not sure about faster baking times at lower temps. I do know one thing though. It APPEARS influence was put out to pull the original post. Magic Line here I come. I won't buy FD just for this reason alone.
Mike
Petit-four Frequent Member
Joined: Feb 21, 2008
Posts: 456
Location: upstate NY
Birthday: Mar 20
Posted:
Tue May 27, 2008 3:39 pm
Thanks Mike. I'm feeling better!
Yup -- I encouraged everyone in the [deleted] post -- run your own test.
I also want to acknowledge Greg Skipper adds a note in the other Cake Decorating Forum about this. I don't agree with Greg on everything, but he did explain his company, his pans, and such to me.
Sorry about 3 different forum posts running at once -- it wasn't me!
Just wanted to acknowledge Petit-four and give her a nod. During this whole fiasco (and make no mistake my friends, this was a total fiasco) she has been calm, cool & collected. Her communications were professional and succinct in ways I still strive for. She has class and as we all know, ya can't buy class!
As for the pans, most of that anodized stuff went right over my head. All I know is she performed a side by side test and the manufacturer who's product did not perform as well came here, had words with someone, the thread was pulled/altered, free pans were offered.....
For me, what I am really surprised about is why more FD pan owners aren't furious about the whole special temperature thing.....how many cakes have been ruined, how much money wasted, how much batter, time and eggs lost?
All because the very backbone of their product, the thing that supposedly makes it work the best and will give you substandard results if used incorrectly is NEVER MENTIONED! I find that really negligent on Fat Daddio's part.
Perhaps instead of worrying about poor test results & losing potential new customers they should worry about a class action disappointment that affects all the customers they already have.
It's BS that your test was taken down. I have some FD pans, and actually like them. Not sure about faster baking times at lower temps. I do know one thing though. It APPEARS influence was put out to pull the original post. Magic Line here I come. I won't buy FD just for this reason alone.
Mike
The test was not taken down due to any "influence" by Fat Daddio, and the fact it was taken down should not be reflected on them. If you want to be mad at someone about it, be made at Cake Central.
Just for the record, there is no vendor who has the "influence" to dictate what is posted on CC. Any post that is removed or edited on CC is at the discretion of the moderators and admins of this site.
it is irresponsible to be making posts suggesting things about which you have no knowledge or insight into.
So if you are mad about it.. feel free to rant in a PM to me.. I can't promise I will write back, but at least you can get it off your chest.
Wow, I haven't read this whole post, but I did enjoy the original. I am amazed at this whole thing! I want to say Thank-you to Petit-four for the informative, and enlightening threads!
I definitely won't be ordering a certain brand of pans after this incident!
Wow, I haven't read this whole post, but I did enjoy the original. I am amazed at this whole thing! I want to say Thank-you to Petit-four for the informative, and enlightening threads!
I definitely won't be ordering a certain brand of pans after this incident!
well you probably should read the whole thing before making any decisions because this "incident" has nothing to do with Fat Daddio. The drama that has been stirred up is a result of the moderating done by CC, not by any efforts on the part of Fat Daddio to squash the information.
mustang1964 Junior Member
Joined: Apr 13, 2007
Posts: 83
Posted:
Tue May 27, 2008 6:41 pm
Petite four Thank You for the comparison post I thought it was very helpful. Sorry you are getting such a hard time about it. What I don't understand is if they took your post off, how can the post about what the worst thing you wasted your money on for cake supplies ( not the right name) still be on. That post is also very helpful but I would just like to point out Wilton's cake leveler is compared to an other cake leveler.
I definitely will not be buying FD especially for the fact it is made in China. I like to buy made in the U.S.
Petit-four Frequent Member
Joined: Feb 21, 2008
Posts: 456
Location: upstate NY
Birthday: Mar 20
Posted:
Tue May 27, 2008 6:49 pm
Mustang and janebrophy -- I just want to say that Heath and I are working this out. I agree with Heath: a very rapid turn of events caused some of the confusion here. I appreciate all the support, and must say Heath and I have been having a respectful conversation.
My post started with the sentence: "Here is my (subjective) opinion." That is all it was meant to be -- something to help CC members make up their own minds. I do appreciate the phone calls from one of the owners of FD to help me find a better baking temperature.
I hope Heath is able to recover the post, or let me post a new test.
Thanks everyone! (and no, still no free pans from ML, Wilton, or anyone!)
marthajo1 Forum SuperStar!
Joined: Mar 04, 2007
Posts: 2395
Location: Visalia, CA
Birthday: Feb 05
Posted:
Tue May 27, 2008 7:15 pm
MaisieBake wrote:
I saw the original post and I thought it was fair (in the sense of balanced, not in the sense of not-so-good).
I'm appalled that the post would be removed and if I had been thinking of buying FD pans, this would convince me not to.
I had to laugh out loud at this cause I was just thinking the same thing! Of course I am the same way when I see a blocked name or website.... I want to know what it says and check it out.
While I can appreciate Greg coming on here to protect his pans image and offering his generous testing offer I would like to be able to make a decision on my own. With all the information.
Edited to add: I finished reading the thread and am pleased to see Heath's response. Unfortunately the actions of the mods do affect how we make decisions. Because of the removed post it reflected negatively in my mind on FD regardless of why it was taken down.
Last edited by marthajo1 on Tue May 27, 2008 7:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
steplite Frequent Member
Joined: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 355
Location: Riverdale, Illinois
Birthday: Aug 16
Posted:
Tue May 27, 2008 7:26 pm
Well I just want to know where to buy FD pans and how do I get the free one. I'm sold on the pans now.
Petit-four and I have exchanged some PMs regarding this situation.
I believe it has been worked out, and I wanted to make a statement that will hopefully bring an end to the confusion of the day.
1. In hindsight I feel that a mistake was made in removing the post. This was a failure on the part of Jackie and I.
2. The removal of the post was not due to the "influence" of a vendor. Our understanding of the situation was flawed. We understood the situation to be that the comparison test was invalid due to the issue with the cook times.
In discussing this further with both Petit-four and with Greg, it is now clear to me that the test should have been allowed to stand as it was. Our failure to fully understand the issue led to the drama surrounding this issue.
No one should be to blame here other than myself and Jackie. Petit-four did nothing wrong, Fat Daddio did nothing wrong.
As I state earlier, we are in the position of trying to review lots of posts each day, and sometimes we make mistakes, this is one of those times.
I apologize for the confusion and drama this failure has caused.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum You can attach files in this forum You can download files in this forum
During this whole fiasco (and make no mistake my friends, this was a 
